drew sagan

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Posts by drew sagan

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  19

  Just in case you missed it -- great comment by "easyreader" from another thread

  by Alpaca in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  on metatron's thread about dubs going mainstream easyreader said this:.

  another issue causing the decay is the lack of a "date".

  in order for a cult to work, there has to be a date where everything will culminate.

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  drew sagan

  Explain cults that focus on colonics.

  Cults mainly focus on the idea of "secret" and "special" knowledge as revealed by the leader(s) of the group (usually charasmatic). JWs are unique in that they have lost the leaders and instead are living of the legacy of those leaders (much like the Philadelphia Church of God lives off the legacy of Herbert Armstrong)

  The Witnesses ulitmately have to move away completely from timetables. Their main message for many years has been "closeness" to the end. Many other movements started out that way but eventually minimized that aspect of their theology and began to look more long term. The Watchtower is at the point where the transition is occuring. Eventually they will move away from "urgency" and turn to longer term thinking. They may be late to changing, but they will change. All religions do...
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  41

  New QFR on May 1 WT reaffirms 1914 and talks about Satan's ouster from Heaven

  by stillajwexelder in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  no matter how stupid, they can not drop 1914 - far too embarassing.

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  drew sagan

  Leolaia is completely correct on this one.

  Sure the Watchtower bailed on 1874 but that was because it was changing identites. I think that's what most of you who think that 1914 is going away seem to miss. Rutherford connected his own personal history with the organization (1914-1919) to a (somewhat) cohesive narritave that now defines who the Watchtower is.

  I think it's also better to understand the 'Bible Students' movement as being separate from the 'Jehovah's Witness' movement created by Rutherford. Rutherford created a brand new religion out of the pieces he inherited through the corporation. The traditions of Rutherford are still very strong inside the organization, the traditions of Russell are not.

  The discontinuation of 1874 can be seen as an extention of Rutherfords discontinuation of Russell. On the other hand, Rutherfords discontinuation of 1925 was simply a change in the face of humiliating evidence (e.g. Rutherfords "I made an ass out of myself" comment). Not all discontinued Watchtower dates are created equal in my opinion.

  Each sucessive generation of Watchtower leaders have built upon the Rutherford (not Russell) model. The Rutherford model has been in place for a much longer peroid of time and has been influential over millions of more people. It is at the core of who the Watchtower has become. It's not going anywhere. It's importance may not be heavily discussed as in Knorr or Franzs' day but it is still alive and well.
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  14

  Niece is getting baptized this summer..Advice

  by outofservice in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  my husbands niece called him last night to proudly announce she was getting baptized this summer.this actually was a bit of a surprise to us.since she is 27 and was raised in the truth.

  the family is not go getter witnesses.

  they seem to just do the basics to get by and we figured since she had not gotten baptized in her teens like most of us born in's she just was not that in to it.

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  drew sagan

  I would caution against Silent Lambs, only because it can be quite heavy. Stick with Rays books IMO. They come in PDF computer files by the way. A great option IMO.
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  14

  Niece is getting baptized this summer..Advice

  by outofservice in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  my husbands niece called him last night to proudly announce she was getting baptized this summer.this actually was a bit of a surprise to us.since she is 27 and was raised in the truth.

  the family is not go getter witnesses.

  they seem to just do the basics to get by and we figured since she had not gotten baptized in her teens like most of us born in's she just was not that in to it.

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  drew sagan

  Yes it's a very good idea you never say anything negative about the org directly, but rather speak to a general call to being "well informed" or something like that. I knew somebody had to be encouraging her, people just don't decide one day that have to take the plunge!

  The last thing you need is for her to think that you are an agent of satan. When somebody is in the works towards baptism they are told over and over again satan is going to use people to try an break their faith. Don't fall into the trap of fulfilling that lame, fake, and predictiable "prophecy". There are many ways around it and I'm sure you'll do well.
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  27

  Hi from wary

  by wary in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  nice to be part of the board at last.

  been reading here for around eight months.

  very warily at first, but now my mind is out of the org.. i was raised in it and never would have dreamed at looking at internet sites for fear of being misled.

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  drew sagan

  Welcome to the board! Your life story sounds very familiar to my own. You may be interested in going back through many of my older posts on this site. I posted quite regularly while I was exiting from the JWs while at the same time helping my wife out.

  Look forward to reading more!

  -Drew
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  14

  Niece is getting baptized this summer..Advice

  by outofservice in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  my husbands niece called him last night to proudly announce she was getting baptized this summer.this actually was a bit of a surprise to us.since she is 27 and was raised in the truth.

  the family is not go getter witnesses.

  they seem to just do the basics to get by and we figured since she had not gotten baptized in her teens like most of us born in's she just was not that in to it.

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  drew sagan

  Well you have the problem of her parents. They are JWs and there is possible conflict if you get in the way of her baptism. OTOH she is 27...

  Stay away from discussions about changes, doctrines, or any of that stuff. It is pointless. You made a specific point that is best not forgotten:

  she is quite immature in our opinion. Like talking to a young teenager

  Most likely she is being encouraged by somebody else at the Kingdom Hall. Somebody that she probably respects more than you. Sometimes people get in the mood of going around and "encouraging" people to get baptized (men trying to be Elders, woman who get pretty zeaolous, ect). You tell her about why it's not true, she will run off to this person and tell them what you said, they will tell her not to talk to you, and that is that. Remember this. While you can't be completely sure that there is somebody pushing here along, if there is that person is in control of her right now. In her immature state she will turn to that person for all of her advice. That's exactly how I was before I got baptized. A young, stupid kid who was eating out of the hands of an guy who was encouraging to get me baptized (he also was a MS trying to make Elder). I wouldn't have believed anything negative about the JWs if it was staring me in the face (in fact it was, I was on Freeminds.org many times before I got baptized! it all just rolled off of me).

  If you recognize your limitations then you may have more success in dealing with her. Realize that any criticms you put out there about the Society will be met with typical responses that JWs use. Why put yourself through that kind of irritation! It doesn't work.

  I think the Ray Franz book is the best option. Let Ray do the talking. More than anything tell her that you simply want her to make up her own mind and that she should be well informed. Don't tell her what she should do but rather encourage her use her own mind.
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  36

  1975 Was Brought Up At the Meeting

  by dismayed in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  so i'm daydreaming through the service meeting last night, (the end of the "supermeeting") and the ms is giving a part on always being ready to defend our faith.

  blah blah blah.....you know the drill.

  so he invites up a brother to do the demo part.

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  drew sagan

  Oh yes, the old "good fruits" routine. Of course, they can define "good fruits" however they like. That's the best part of that argument. All they do is point to a world wide organization they have very little connection with (don't even know who's in charge most of the time!) and say that what it is doing proves they are good.
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  59

  Witnesses increase by 44% in 7 years Study Finds: 2001-2008

  by Joker10 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  a more detailed look at the just released american religious identification survey (aris) shows witnesses have increased from 1,331,000 in 1991 to 1,914,000in 2008. that is 583,000 more people, or a whopping 43.8 percent growth.

  they now make up 0.8 percent of the u.s. population.. who says jws are in the decline?.

  (http://b27.cc.trincoll.edu/weblogs/americanreligionsurvey-aris/reports/aris_report_2008.pdf).

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  drew sagan

  from my own non statistical analysis it seems as if the immigration of mexicans to America just might be a major factor. The Watchtower Society actually started a program in which it teaches english speaking Americans Spanish so they can join in on those territories (anybody familiar with this? I know a number of people who took part). Spanish congregations where also growing steadily and I knew a number of americans who started to move to them to "help where the need was great".

  My thinking was that if the WTS is going through the effort to set up language courses the potential for growth in the foreign language field must be very important to them.
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  31

  Knocking on doors.....How successful is it?

  by Quirky1 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i found this to be pretty unsuccessful during my time since i was a jw.

  i actually had my interest sparked with the jw's by family members and freinds that were jw's.. were you a statistic of the knock at the door?.

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  drew sagan

  I think what really needs to be done is a comparitive study on the stats. I know that recent numbers show that JWs dedicate an absurd amount of time to gain one new member. I wonder if that was lower back, say, in the 1950's or so.
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  16

  new freeminds.org is live

  by besty in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  please feel free to take a look at www.freeminds.org - its a major site relaunch with a lot of new content.

  leave some feedback on the site or on this thread if you so choose.

  this is not the oscars so i'll be brief:.

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  drew sagan

  bttt